Discussion: Onsight - terms

Onsight - terms

Now that thecrag.com has changed the parameters of an "onsight", might be appropriate to revisit what constitutes an "onsight".

Climbers agree on specific basic knowledge of a route, as being acceptable, and still calling a successful ascent an "onsight".

1. Name of the route

2. Length of the route

3. Grade of the route.

4. Type of climbing (trad/sport/mixed/alpine).

5. A basic description of where the route goes.

And.....?

If you know or do this, you can still call your ascent, an onsight?

If you know or do this, you may not call your ascent an onsight?

🤔🤨

At the end of the day its up to your personal preference, there is no worldwide council of outdoor sends, lol

you can make it as easy or as challenging as you want in the end it doesn't really matters specially on our grades

Congratulations for Marks trolling. Or is he seriously spamming the whole theCrag world with his nonsense discussions?

That you take part in...

Well there's no police except public opinion. Joe blogs will do what he (they) pleases when ticking climbs on theCrag, but when big names claim Onsight ascents of big grades, you can be sure it's an actual onsight. Bolts, draws on, chalk - sure they make an Onsight "easier", but everyone gets the same conditions on those climbs - it's not like you can do it sans chalk and bolts. If you're a purist; go onsight Trad routes with no chalk - that's fun in and of itself; but that doesn't mean an Onsight of a sport route is any less of an onsight.

Mark Gamble Onsight does not mean you can't collect whatever information is available from the ground and as you climb the route. Onsight just means you walked up to the route knowing nothing beforehand and you didn't watch anybody on it or rappel in and check the moves beforehand. Whether the holds are chalked is irrelevant. Would it be harder without the chalk? Of course. But onsight doesn't mean do it the hardest way possible, in the most pristine conditions possible. It would harder in the rain, or in full sun, or during a forest fire. But that doesn't change it being an onsight. You just climb it in the conditions you find it. Which sometimes is very chalked up.

I just did one of my hardest squirts

Nothing worse that being halfway through a squirt and having someone else spray you

I would also argue in some cases chalk actually makes it harder as every man and his dog has tried and chalk every non hold on a route ha ha

Oh you looked up at the route while you were putting on your harness? Sorry, that's looking at it before you were actually climbing it. No Onsight for you.

Did you hike the approach blindfolded? No? No onsight for you.

Oh you say you just onsighted El Cap? Did you see Free Solo? NO ONSIGHT FOR YOU.

Let it go, Mark...

The only really substantial question here is if pre-clipped quickdraws are allowed. I would say yes, but maybe we need to have 2 on-sight categories:

1. Orthodox on-sight (O2) - when you do the clipping.

2. Regular on-sight = you never touched the holds before and you have no SUBSTANTIAL info on the beta.

Let's be serious, no amount of chalk and tick-marks will ever help as much as pre-clipped quickdraws. Sometimes chalk can even derail your attempt!

i mean if you’ve seen free solo you for sure can’t onsight the free rider

And arguably if you know how to hand jam you can only onsight the first hand crack you ever do and none of the subsequent ones

TheOneWhoSeeks If pre-placed QDs weren't allowed, half of the onsights of the pros would need to be revoked. Ondra, Schubert, Megos and many other pros notoriously count their onsights with QDs in place. Same is true for their redpoints, even though technically it would be 'just' pinkpoint. Silence was redpointed with the QDs in place.

Anyways, in my very humble opinion this discussion is headed in the wrong direction. As a non-pro, onsight is whatever you make of it, there's no price money for onsighting anything or any defined rules so it comes down to your personal ethics and standards of what to count as onsight and whatnot, regardless of what any rule books (not that any exist) have to say.

In Austria, to become a climbing instructor, you have to onsight a 7a or harder, and by onsight they mean that you have never seen the route before, ever. Come exam day, they simply create that route for this sole purpose. Of course this can only be done indoors where you have the freedom to set a route that hasn't existed yet.

For that, Red OnSight and Pink OnSight should be created

That's why you can tag your onsight now with "gear pre-placed"

Where's the option to log a route as "repeat"?? If I've already sent X route on whatever style (OS, RP, Flash,etc), but I do the route later on, perhaps several times (training, casual climbing, fun, etc), there is no option to mark as repeat... It obviously isn't a RP pink point, or anything else ... Seems like an obvious oversight. UKC allows for OS, RP, flash, Dog, DNF-Did Not Finish, Repeat). Simple, and covers all fronts.

I am using "tick" for repeats, as this option is not available

I second that the UKC site allows for the only types of ascents that actually mean anything and that every other tick type on the crag is meaningless.

You can absolutely log a redpoint or a pinkpoint as a repeat. In your logbook it will be apparent that you have done the climb however many times. If its about other people then write repeat x5 or whatever in the comment. Or not. I dont care for data personally so i almost never log a repeat but if i did i simply add an ascent as i typically would.

Repeat doesn't mean anything - if you climb a route again you obviously clImb it in a specific style, meaning pink point, red point or as a hang dog for example...

Yeah, but redpoint infers you fell on the route previously, that's it's historical definition. You guys decided that repeats = redpoint, but a clean repeat (never fallen on the route) is, unfortunately, it's own style.

Not correct as per the definition here: https://www.thecrag.com/en/article/ticktypes#lead-ascents

It says "not first attempt" - and that you have fallen is not a requirement

im pretty sure the deffinition of redpoint is a clean ascend without fall ground up in one try without resting in gear..

Ulfi, I'm sorry to say, that whatever thecrag uses as a definition of redpoint, isn't law. Repeat does mean something, and it is very very different o a redpoint.

Trying to correct someone quoting thecrag "as per definition here" is pointless. The definition of thecrag could mention climbing with a parrot on your shoulder. Doesn't make it a thing.

Same way that greenpoints aren't a thing, but they're defined there, for giggles, I guess.

Greenpoints aren't a thing now? Maybe read this: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Redpoint_(climbing)

Well, if we're quoting wikipedia, lol. https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Redpoint_(climbing)

"In rock climbing, redpointing means to free-climb a route from the ground to the top while lead climbing, after having practiced the route (either by headpointing or top roping) or after having failed first attempt (i.e. falling or resting on the rope for artificial aid).[2] Climbers will try to redpoint a route after having failed to onsight it (free climb the route on the first attempt with no falls and no prior beta), or flash it..."

So, imo, the default "repeat" tick type would be a no falls ascent, easy. If you did it in another style (dog, pinkpoint, greenpoint etc), you'd use that style. I know points wise or whatever it's the same as redpoint, but people still get confused when logging repeats, as per the wiki definition.

Repeats are most used for training, warmups, but also easy trad. No one redpoints an easy trad route, and to log one as such belittles the ascent, as viewers of your ascents can't tell if you fell all over it previously, or are logging it as a repeat as theCrag suggests.

Greenpoint isn't a thing. The same way pinkpoint isn't a thing (anymore). The latter has fallen into disuse. The former was never a thing.

You want to add stuff like ecopoint into thecrag for giggles? Sure, go ahead.

I suspect many people haven't given enough thought to the types of ascents....as I can read here.

I believe gear on or gear off should be a tick that you see straightaway instead of a tag you enter low on the ascent log page. It would be then possible to make it locked to either on or off for certain ascent types to avoid confusion, like redpoint and pinkpoint.

The following order is also possible: #working, #doging, #pinkpoint, #redpoint, #greenpoint, #freesolo.

If you repeat a route, you tick the style that it was repeated in. Obviously OS/F isn't possible anymore (and should be disabled for ticking in the frontend if prior ascents exist).

Goshen Watts You're trying to distinguish if you ever fell on a route or not with your repeats. But the ticktype of the repeat is not the indicator for this information, this distinction is made from your prior ascents and attempts, which of course are visible for others so they see if you fell all over it previously or not.

A clean repeat of a previously sent route is also just a redpoint. To make an additional distinction terms like "alzheimer-onsight" or "retro-flash" are commonly used to indicate that you did it first go on that day.

alonsoATCO So Pinkpoint and Greenpoint aren't a thing? Well if you say so, good to know. /s

Well, the tick type of the repeat IS the indicator of this information, as per the definition of redpoint on the wiki. But I get your point, and it makes sense at that level. However, some of my friends just use the black tick for repeats... is that a 'problem' for the way the data is collated? Or really doesn't matter? To be honest, the black tick for repeats sits better with me than the redpoint one when the style of the ascent hasn't been improved and it's just regular easy sport or trad routes.

For a repeat, you can select red point AND number of attempts in session = 1.

a repeat is NOT a redpoint. No matter what the Thecrag.com description section says. It just isnt. There is 1 onsight/flash chance per climb, failing that you can redpoint it, once.

If I onsigh a route, i can't redpoint it later. It does not make sense.

Thats just plain wrong, any free ascend without falls or any force on the rope is a redpoint.

So long as you're hanging draws as you go, otherwise that would be a pinkpoint

alonsoATCO All of my repeats are redpoints. Even if I have a rest but only less than 5 seconds because 5 second rule

The pinkpoint thing is debateable since the inventor of redpoint Kurt Albert also said preplaced draws are ok because they can hinder flow.

Oh jesus - we're going in circles. Pinkpoint is for Trad / gear routes - nobody cares about Sport Pink vs Redpoints. No Carl G - Redpoint is a defined as a successful attempt FOLLOWING unsuccessful attempts... (as per the Wiki definition above). So Alonso is right, IMO. Obviously there are many opinions.

Look it up on wikipedia, kurt albert gave a clear definition. I really dont care, but any clean repeat is a redpoint. Ofcourse an os or flash is not a redpoint. I thought that was common knowledge.

What Goshen Watts said.

Since redpoint is just the ascent style in free-climbing, technically an onsight/flash is just a redpoint at the first try

I’m really curious where you get the idea from, that a route can only be redpointed once.

My guess is alonsoATCO is getting pedantic with his interpretation of "the rules".

As soon as you have red pointed a route you can claim that you have red pointed it then and for ever after. Even if you dog it next time you're on it you can still claim you have red pointed it.

Hence the idea that you can only really red point it once.

That minor piece of pedantry is irrelevant in the context of recording your own ascents on the crag.

Being able to tick/record ascents in the style that they were climbed is important to many people.

Being able to tick onsight, red, red, dog, red, pink, red on a route is useful not just to the individual but the community using the crag more generally.

Goshen Watts I do agree redpoint follows unsuccessful attempts. Never mentions that it only has to be next to the last unsuccessful attempt. alonsoATCO On what ground do you claim that pinkpoint is not or no longer a thing? Not because you don’t distinguish between red and pinkpoint that nobody else equally doesn’t.

If you top-rope a route first go, then lead it first go... surely that's a Red Point in anyone's books.

Goshen Watts because it didn't make any sense to start with. Onsight attempt doesn't specify/imply whether quickdraws were in already or not, neither does Flash. It is absolutely irrelevant for your redpoint. And everyone, everywhere these days calls everything a redpoint, whether you have QDs on or not already. So, ye, pinkpoint term is absolutely ridiculous. Not to mention a huge proportion of the climbing community doesn't even know what it is.

Debate the issues, not me. I've had my 2cents here. Carry-on.

alonsoATCO pinkpoint is only relevant for trad routes. there it is a major help to have the pro already in place.

it’s actually only an onsight if it comes from the onsight region of germany. otherwise it’s just a sparkling flash.

Will Vidler just won and concluded this entire sordid discussion.

This discussion got me thinking. I would like to be able to tag my ascents with "Repeat". Why are the tag fields so limited?

I agree with the sentiment that a second successful send is still a red-point. But it is ALSO a "repeat". This is useful information to me which I would like to tag.

It should be an automatic tag then (just as "gear on" should be automatically on/off for pinkpoint/redpoint)

All down to personal ethics as already pointed out before. I consider placing draws a step harder than having QD in place hence found useful the distinction between red and pinkpoint, just as much as leading any pitch even with rest superior to top roping or climbing as second with no rest. Was once looking for a repeat feature similar to the available bouldering repeat feature but could not find any. No big deal. Using RP and PP instead for my own records and OS only when having to place the draws myself (because draws in place is beta to me and I hence label the climb as flash). Even using AF when I fell once (small mistake, slipping, …) versus hangdog for falling multiple times and working hard … Holy smoke ! 10 degrees and sun forecast for this weekend … looks like climbing outdoors !

In the post-nuclear apocalypse, 2 things will survive - cockroaches, and the draws on-off red-point debate.

i think AF should be reserved for the saxon sandstone. i mean here it makes sense, because reaching the ring ussualy is like a pitch of climbing already. also we are the only place that has af as an actual leading style. the whole concept is what inspired the redpoint movement by kurt albert. climbing a sport climb as af just sounds wrong to me.

Thank you Carl G., that really helps with an understanding of AF + Redpoint or "red x" and the historical sense & meaning of these terms.

👍

@ Carl G.Pophal: In my opinion, even in Saxon Sandstone, AF is only permitted for some routes. (maybe in routes with necessary intermediate anchor for better rope guidance) But it is difficult to define......and it has nothing to do with the opening topic.